[求助]請問both的用法 - 文法教學區 - 英語討論區
[求助]請問both的用法 - 文法教學區 - 英語討論區
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[求助]請問both的用法
Quite a regular
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  下面三句,中文翻譯都一樣,是否有文法錯誤的句子?請老師們講解,謝謝^^!

They are not both English teachers.
They both are not English teachers.
Both they are not English teachers.

2005/07/10 14:36

Rule 於 2007-08-08 05:32:26

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Re: [求助]請問both的用法
訪客
Both they are not English teachers
should be
Both of them are not English teachers.

They are not both English teachers means that one of them is an English teacher and the other is not.

They both are not English teacher = Both of them are not English teachers. This is different from the sentence above.

2005/07/10 22:01

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Re: [求助]請問both的用法
Home away from home
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2005/02/18 10:48
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I agree with Gina completely.

Both of them are not English teachers. (both = a noun)
=They both are not English teachers. (both = a noun, 同位語)
=They are both not English teachers. (both = an adverb)

=\= They are not both English teachers. (both = an adjective, one is and the other isn't)

2005/07/10 22:45

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Re: [求助]請問both的用法
Quite a regular
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  糟糕@@,上面這二篇講解我用翻譯軟體也看不懂,誰能幫我翻譯一下?謝謝!

2005/07/11 08:36

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Re: [求助]請問both的用法
Home away from home
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2004/11/18 02:21
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> They are both not English teachers. (both = an adverb)

我查了好幾本字典,都沒提到both可以當adverb用。

這句型基本上是如此:
They are both (not English teachers)
句子結構上相當於 They are both (English teachers)
換句話說,這時候的both仍是pronoun.

引文:

American Heritage Dictionary
both

(pron.) The one and the other:
We are both candidates.

2007/08/08 05:09

Rule 於 2007-08-08 05:31:59
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Re: [求助]請問both的用法
Home away from home
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2004/11/18 02:21
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> They are not both English teachers. (both = an adjective, one is and the other isn't)

關於這的話,這可以有兩種解釋,「兩個都不是英文老師」,或是「一個是英文老師,一個不是英文老師」,至於到底是哪個就要看內文。

以下是我到AUE問英語人士所得到的回答:

引文:


引文:
On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 16:43:39 -0400, DJ <no@nospam.no> wrote:

Hi,

In this sentence: "They are not both English teachers"

Does it mean
1. One is an English teacher and the other one is not.

or

2. (Assuming teacher A and teacher B)
A is not an English teacher. B is not an English teacher.


This is not a question you should have to ask. Statements like this don't appear without context, and context would make the answer clear.

The answer could be 1) or 2). Go look at the source and all will be revealed.

--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL


有興趣讀整串討論文的人可以點下面的link:

They are not both....

2007/08/08 05:40
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Re: [求助]請問both的用法
Home away from home
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這三句也是一樣的問題多多:

Both of them are not English teachers.
They both are not English teachers.
They are both not English teachers.

都是可以解讀成"一個是,一個不是",或是"兩者都不是"。根據我的書,作者是建議最好用"neither"來表示"兩者都不是"。

(如果要表示一個是一個不是的話呢?那麼最好是完整的寫出來,儘量不要想單靠both...not來表示)

引文:

"Practical English Usage" by Michael Swan, 3rd edition

110 both
....
6 negative structures
Instead of 'both...not', we normally use 'neither'.

Neither of them is here. (NOT Both of them are not here(*1).)


(*1) 關於這點,因為用Google Books可以找到這句型,好奇下我也在AUE上問這問題(上篇貼文我在AUE問的同一串討論文),一個英語人士是回說:

It's an over-simplification to say "both...not" isn't used, but it's very useful advice to say you should use "neither" instead, since "neither" is absolutely clear in meaning.

(大致翻): 那樣子講雖然是過於簡化,但是確實是很好的建議,因為使用'neither'在意思表達上絕不會讓人搞混

有時候即使有內文仍會讓人搞不清楚both ...not指的到底是哪種意思。有興趣的可以看CyberCypher(Franke)引的那段關於颱風的文章。

----------------------------------------------

我後來在tw.bbs.lang.english群組上挖出了這兩篇,基本上差不多,也可以參考看看

引文:


Newsgroups: tw.bbs.lang.english
From: Jim Walsh
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:37:14 +0800
Local: Mon, Sep 13 2004 11:37 am
Subject: Re: 否定句和BOTH的難題

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:00:06 +0000, 今之古人 thought carefully and wrote:

> they both are not students.
> they are both not students.
> they are not both students.

The word "both" is used when there are two of something (in this case people).

There are four possible cases:

1. Two positives: They are both students.

2. Two negatives: Neither of them are students.

3. "A" negative, "B" positive: Tom isn't a student, but John is.

4. "A" positive, "B" negative: Tom is a student, but John isn't.

Native speakers simply do NOT say "Both are not students".

First of all, it means "ONE is a student and ONE is not," which is a useless sentence because we don't know which is which.

If you mean "two negatives," then say "neither is a student."



引文:

Newsgroups: tw.bbs.lang.english
From: "Peacenik"
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:04:57 GMT
Local: Mon, Sep 13 2004 12:04 pm
Subject: Re: 否定句和BOTH的難題

"Jim Walsh" <jimwa...@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message

> Native speakers simply do NOT say "Both are not students".

Agree.

> First of all, it means "ONE is a student and ONE is not," which is a
> useless sentence because we don't know which is which.

I disagree. If someone says "Both are not students", I think it would mean "Neither is a student". However, you are correct: native speakers would generally not use "both" in the negative.

> If you mean "two negatives," then say "neither is a student."

Agree.

--
Peacenik

2007/08/08 06:13

djyang 於 2007-08-10 02:43:08
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Re: [求助]請問both的用法
Home away from home
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補充資料

錢伯斯英文文法與用法A-Z
第224頁
指「兩者都不…」要說neither of或not either of,不可用both … not或not … both(這是「兩者中只有一個不…」的意思):
Neither of her current boyfriends looks very interesting.
她目前的兩個男朋友看起來都不怎麼有趣。
I haven’t seen either of them for ages.
他們兩個人我都很久沒看到了。



錢伯斯英文文法與用法A-Z
第226頁
表示「A和B都不…」,要說neither ... or:
I neither knew nor cared what had happened to him.
他發生了什麼事,我既不知道,也不在乎。

2007/08/08 15:14

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Re: [求助]請問both的用法
Home away from home
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2006/10/05 15:46
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引文:
I neither knew nor cared what had happened to him.
他發生了什麼事,我既不知道,也不在乎。


We can say the following as well.
I didn't know or care what had happened to him.

2007/08/08 22:04

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Re: [求助]請問both的用法
Home away from home
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> 不可用both … not或not … both(這是「兩者中只有一個不…」的意思

要先跟lyh說聲對不起,畢竟是要指出有問題的說法,尤其是這本書內容不錯。

劃底線的部份本來我以為是專指not在both前頭的句型,但是這並不難找到反例(*1)。至於both ...not的句型,這已經在我之前的貼文裡頭有提到了,同時反例也不難找到。

我是覺得有可能是翻譯的人在翻譯過程中出了差錯(也許漏了個It could also mean...),所以我想去找英文原版來對照這一部分,但是實在找不到(這部份我寫在我的blog裡頭: 找不到這本書)

等找到後我再回報,只是恐怕要等段時間....(我也不確定能不能找到)

(*1)
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/composition/literature.htm

"If you're using a word processor or you have a fancy typewriter, use italics, but do not use both underlines and italics."

整個意思是有使用文書處理器,或是新一點的能打出斜體字的打字機,那麼就單用斜體字,不要底線和斜體字兩者一起用。

按照內文,劃底線的部份指的是「不要底線和斜體字兩者一起用」,而不是「兩者中只有一個不…」,因為前文已經提到「單用斜體字」,而「兩者中只有一個不…」指的是可以兩者任選一個,然後剩下的一個就不要用(換言之變成選底線也是可能的選擇),這不符合原意。


另一個是日常中容易遇到的"I don't like them both",在絕大多數情況下指的是"兩樣都不喜歡"而不是"一個喜歡,另一個不喜歡"(我的印象裡頭沒遇過這種意思的)。例句的話Google上實在是很多,所以就不列了。

2007/08/11 05:32

djyang 於 2007-08-11 07:09:24
djyang 於 2007-08-30 01:10:41
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